difference between r12 and r134a expansion valvewhat is the tone of antony's speech

This works when the R12 charge specification is listed in pounds. I'm also thinking maybe I should go to R134 - it might work better with the right amount of oil and the correct expansion valve. It didn't seem too dirty though - I don't think it is the problem, but I could be wrong. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. The typical scenario here is when the car owner buys an inexpensive retro-fit kit from the local auto parts store. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. I have the original (R12) style expansion valve in the Maverick AC system. There are R134a specific valves that operate at a slightly different pressure, but not for any "old" automotive application that I'm aware of. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . We consider the the various types alternative refrigerants that are illegal or not approved to be in two sectors: non-flammables and flammables. Rxmechanic.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for website owners to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Even though their common major function is to cool the system, they have many differences. J.Harris said: Or if you want to do it like they do in Mexico you can use propane, it's an excellent refrigerant but highly flammable. Look deep into the fins. Whenever its exposed to the environment, it changes to a gas. It is mixed with the freon for the most part, and does accumulate in all components in small amounts. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. And, unfortunately a small high side pressure gauge on a short hose. With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. I think the way to go here is1. R134a requires the use of synthetic oil! After the optimum refrigerant charge is determined the car should be test driven to check for performance of the system. Blows pretty hard on full. Questions About Becoming A Professional Member? So that indicates it is cooling well there doesn't it? Your decision could be made based on economics, environmental concerns, or both. Should I do the test again with the the aux fan jumpered? It is a known suspect that lets heat into the heat exchanger/core even when off because the mono-valve is on the exit side of the heater core. Usually, mechanics charge around $200 for conversion. shown for the parallel flow, aluminum condenser that is listed. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1991Make: Jaguar Model: XJ6Engine Size: 4.0. Trinary Pressure Switch quantity. The global warming potential of R134a is 1430. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. They have no moving parts. The MB chart shows 360 psi with R12 in some conditions. I have a laser temp reader, and it says the temps going into the condensor are up to 160F - coming out it is always around 110 or so. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. and feeds it through an expansion valve. Your old hoses of course will not fit. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. A capacity curve is shown in figure 2 for relative capacity of R134a vs. R12 for evaporating temperatures from 0F to 50F. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. Are you sure you have an R4? B. Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). Lets take you through the advantages, disadvantages, and differences of these two refrigerants a detailed comparison including R12 vs R134a performance. Dimensioning of refrigeration components - part 2 - Danfoss If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. It runs between the condenser outlet, receiver/drier unit and expansion valve at the firewall. Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. Then at least I'd know really where I am on it. 5. Expansion Valve. George Bray on Wed August 31, 2005 5:03 PM I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. Though - the valve for a 1991 says R12 on it, and for a 1994, it says R-134a. There is a lot of differences between the R12 and the R134a fittings, you can't mistake them. Could that be screwing up the systems performance?Anyway, when I installed the system, the new TXV (is that short for expansion valve?) It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. Get to the point where I can walk without crutches2. And I lied about the compressor switches on this car - there are 2 switches on the drier - a temp and a pressure switch. Please enter a password for your user account. In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. When I compare parts, 93 uses one part number and 94 has a different part number. The mechanical fan & clutch should be checked as well. Heres R12 vs. R134a pressure chart. Electric fans do wear out. R134a vs R12 - What is the Differences? - Rx Mechanic It is also used in automotive car conditioning and the plastic industry. By using a black light the dye will glow in areas where oil leaks are visible. Typically 5 to 6 ounces of a/c oil is adequate but this may vary depending upon the car. This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! R134a refrigerant is lighter than R12. Thread starter goldNSX; Start date 1 August 2009; Tagged . Since then, the industry standard has been R134a, which is an efficient replacement. El juny de 2017, el mateix grup va decidir crear un web deDoctor Who amb el mateix objectiu. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. (On firewall where A/C lines go into cab.) We say generally because the vehicle manufacturer may have a formula already worked out for the R134a conversion process. With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. As illustrated in the chart below, the curves below run together nearly throughout the curve, only slightly breaking paths at around 250 psig/150 degrees and above Flammability/Safety R-1234yf has been designated as MILDLY flammable. They might say for instance, add 3-4 oz of oil to the compressor, 1 oz of oil for when you replace a drier, 2 oz oil for the evaporator and so on. Though I have seen em run as cold as 12 deg F. If the thermo switch is malfunctioning. It's not just the poor performance - the cooling just stops working after a while. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Hi pdrayton- If you can remember the oil capacity that you found in all your research and post that, then bohica and others can have a better idea if you have too much; see if you can find that info! Catalog E-1, Thermostatic & Automatic Expansion Valves / Page 1 Table of Contents . But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. According to the thermodynamic characteristics, it is close to the R12 freon, however, it is 10-15% worse in terms of cooling capacity and is more fluid. I'll report back on the aux fan on performance next. You do not need to replace the expansion valve in most cases. Where would I get some basic info on it, I know nothing about it. 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . Are r12 and r134 fittings different? Besides, you have a greaseisel. So you could likely put off buying those new hoses just a bit longer if you wanted. Effects of alternative refrigerants on the ejector dimensions for ambulance tailgate conversion But with an R4, better too much than too little.3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12.4) The airflow across the condensor is crucial to good performance. They can be mounted quite easy,and there is a mounting kit that helps to hang it. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve 3 ounces? The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. The oil used in R12 systems is not compatible with R134a refrigerant. Also, it can be used with all types of compressors. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). Superheat you can consider to be the additional amount of heat. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. The most common influences which effect the capability of R134a to perform well are the condenser, in some cases the the superheat setting of the expansion valve or the amount of R134a. The flammables have hydrocarbons. Also, they are mostly used in refrigeration and automotive air conditioning systems. Hmmmm. PDF Tecumseh Guidelines for Utilization of R134a These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Make sure visiually that no large gaps exist that would allow the air to bypass the condensor on the way to the radiator.B. It slowly gets warmer and warmer in the car, even at highway speeds. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. Plus, not releasing the chemical into the air is morally justifiable. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. In a comparison between R12 vs R134a vs R1234yf, R1234yf will pass as the best refrigerant. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). 34 in 70 series w/ R12 in 100+ Tucson, AZ summer heat w/ hd-t, w/ 13B-T is was unbearable about 31 at vent w/ R12. Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. 4.R404A R134a increased mass transfer resistance to reduce the transmission chamber heat coefficient, while R507 heat transfer coefficient is higher than R404A. I had a 1991 BMW switched to 134a by just changing the low pressure charging valve, flushing and refilling with 134 (maybe with 10% . But, what is considered a good temperature differential across the condensor? It was later found that R-134a had a very high Global Warming Potential, or GWP, number. Condensers designed to release greater amounts of heat help to expel the greater amount of heat which R134a removes from the cars interior. If the water valve is not closing all the way you will have re-heating of the cabin air.The cabin blower was not exactly a powerhouse - it was rated at 200w. Welcome to rxmechanic.com. Low refrigerating effect per pound: In comparison to other refrigerants, the refrigerating effect of R12 per pound is low. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. This is due to many facts: R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! The system will be checked for gross leaks while under vacuum. a 50f delta across the condensor is good, but I suspect that is an idle reading. Yes, the 50F diff (160-110F) on the condenser was at idle, and ambient was about 90F. I had a pair on my SAAB that seemed ok - but new ones ran 20% faster!Your best clue to airflow issues is a 60 mph test. Hope this helps. CR4P). That would be the "black death" syndrome. Is there a source of valves by, say, eaton number? Any suggestions, or do you need to know the hi/lo readings? R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. When the temperature is reduced to-7C or below, the plants ability to cool the airdrops significantly. Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. It won't be optimal, though. Use a strong surfactant like Simple Green or Zep Citrus, and soak the fins on the condensor. You do not want to exceed the systems high side recommendations. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. Your average garage that works on a/c on the side probably would not have this. To bless the system the technician should attach a R134a sticker somewhere in the engine compartment to note the car is using R134a. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? compressor, condenser, evaporator and expansion valve are specifically designed for use with R134a. By using a qualified a/c shop with the proper equipment you odds are in your favor of having the job done correctly the first time. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. A/C systems designed to use R-12 will cool best when charged with R-12 refrigerant. Also, since R134a uses synthetic oil, it has a low global warming potential, unlike R12 which uses mineral oil which poses a negative environmental impact. The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. Put a relay on the compressor clutch to the aux fan (I like that idea - makes a lot of sense)How does that sound? of refrigerant insulation tape. Very nice! Swapping the components isnt a herculean task, but recharging the AC is a challenge. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . It is perhaps possible to locate a unit with a company that purchases close out or distressed merchandise. You should keep in mind that recharging your air conditioner improperly could result in more serious damage. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? 10,000BTU conduction heating? System has been working fine for a year. Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. You can also check the Aux fan in your case. R12 Expansion Valve with R134A charge? - Maverick This kit comes complete with Expansion valve, o-ring kit, and 1ft. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. Existing technology: R134a has been in use in the refrigeration industry for very many years, and theres so much information about the safe use of the product. I don't know where it is getting the switch off command, or why the vent temp drops steadily. R12 is highly destructive to the earths ozone layer. 1.5 ounces - hmmm. In short, NO! In no particular order, here's what I've found out regarding answering the questions posed so far:Fonebone - It is definitely an R4 compressor (they left the c off the front and the p off the end, i.e. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. The compressors used by refrigeration plants to compress gas require oil to help lubricate its moving parts. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." #19. Just had knee surgery yesterday, so I"M not exactly hopping around too well. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. I put one in my old daily driver '79 Chevy tank (r-12), and it really made a difference. Bookmarks: Digg; del . R404a is a zeotropic blend with a temp glide , because of the mixture of 2 or more refrigerants. At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. It won't be optimal, though. I know this is bad, etc, and deposits on the metal can act as insulators. The current expansion valve is FF - 1/4 - C. Is it neccesary to replace this valve? We mention using ester type refrigerant oil. I mean, really a lot. Recharge the compressor with a/c ester oil and a tracer dye. 2001-2023 Griffiths Technical Inc. All Rights Reserved. Yes it will work with either Refrigerant! Ensure you contact a professional mechanic to do the work for you so you dont end up incurring more costs for yourself. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. BTW, I use a stick thermo in the vents and the laser on the condenser. It does not "pool" to any degree in a large amount anywhere. Thanks again. I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. The value of carbon dioxide is 1. Depending on which circuit diagram fits your car (cough, no vin list exists) you have either one or two switches controlling the aux fan. R12 and R134 are of different chemistry. 4) Repeat step 2, making sure it will fit. The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. Add to cart. And no, you cannot "drain' excess oil out. There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. Safety: R134a is safe to use as its non-flammable and cant explode. Lasers don't do well on vent temps, a stick thermometer is better in that application. A thermostatic expansion valve (TXV) (see Figure 1) is a refrigeration and air conditioning throttling device that controls the amount of refrigerant liquid injected into a system's evaporatorbased on the evaporator outlet temperature and pressurecalled the superheat. Super heats are so close, it should not be a major concern.-------------------------The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . We recently created this blog site to enable us to share our knowledge with other automotive mechanics and car owners. I'm doing one thing at a time so I know what the cause was. R12 is CFC: Even though R12 is one of the most commonly used refrigerants, it is CFC. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valvewarning signs for a deteriorating patient with covid 19 infection 2022.07.03 18:36 18:36 Before landing on the debate of R134 vs R12 you should know that both R134a and R12 are AC refrigerants types used in refrigeration and air conditioning systems. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. Recomanem consultar les pgines web de Xarxa Catal per veure tota la nostra oferta. Amazon.com: 134a Valve These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. What was the ambient when you took that reading?Jumpering the aux fan is a common thing here in the desert. Operating Pressure/Temperature Differences The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. Warning: "continue" targeting switch is equivalent to "break".Did you mean to use "continue 2"? (You must log in or sign up to reply here. The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. R-134a XV for R-134a use. Then when it is switched off for a few minutes and then back on, the air cools again. _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . You can buy bulk hose, and the proper fittings, then have them crimped off the vehicle.Be sure that no air bypasses the new condensor on the way to the radiator. On the other hand, R12 has a global warming potential of 10,910. That is a good thing. Temp switch works the aux fan. He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. Further production of R12 was banned in some developed countries by the Montreal Protocol because of its harsh effect on the ozone layer. R-12 expansion valves can be re-used, but will not be as efficient as R-134a specific ones because of the slightly different pressure specs of R-12 vs. R-134a. . The oil used in R12 and R134a are different and not compatible. 5. I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. Is there a graph? How dumb!I will jumper the aux fan and redo the test. James10952001. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Does it matter - assuming both are new & uncontaminated? Consider using the newer valve, even with 134a stamped on the valve. I bought a relay to put on it connected to the compressor clutch. R12 can move more heat than r134 so when it isn't very hot and the system isn't maxed out you wont be able to tell the difference but when its 110 out and the inside is 140 R12 will cool the cabin temp faster. AC R12 to R134A Conversion | MR2 Owners Club Forum difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve If you are replacing other system components, such as condensers, driers or hoses, you may need to add more a/c refrigerant oil to the system. Vent temperatures slowly go down to around 50F with hi speed driving. After the system has been tested out it should be checked for leaks. This implies that the discharge pressure of the compressor should be moderate so it can produce the refrigerants condensation in the condenser at the atmospheric temperature. R12 is simply too expensive for a 25+ year old A/C system. R134a vs R12 refrigerant? -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Then again, there are two different expansion valves. For those of you who are considering what the cost is for R12 you can think of it this way: Dont go out to dinner this weekend. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. Can I use the one for the R-12? With R12 you use to check to see if the site glass was full, if it had bubbles it meant you had a low charge. Moreso, it had been banned. They plug all the time. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. The symbol implies that R12 is a composite of carbon, chlorine, and fluorine.

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